Good vs Evil, Right vs Wrong
Dawn asked the question “Are [people] born good and something changes or do they start out damaged in some way?” It’s for an assignment but I’m not sure what the subject is.
It’s an interesting question, one related to a lot of subjects I’ve tried to explore and curiously, only yesterday, I added a couple of books that deal with some aspects of this topic to my Amazon wishlist. The problem is that I just can’t get my head around the subject as it stands at the moment. Mainly because it would require a 10,000+ word essay to do it any justice! One of the main questions that I have and have written about before (but not here) is whether the concepts of good and evil are absolute or relative. Plato, for example, argued that there are certain absolute truths in the world that we may not yet know but that must exist. I would argue that the concepts are relative and that there are no absolute moral truths.
The hows and whys of that argument will have to wait until I have more coherent thoughts and a structured argument. At the moment, I would be too much at risk of following tangents such as “It it possible for someone to knowingly commit an ‘evil’ act?” To clarify this question, I’ll put forward the brief outline of my argument. I would argue that it is not possible for a person to carry out a purely ‘evil’ act. All actions have a well intentioned motive behind it, even if that motive is as simple and selfish as “I get a kick out of it!”
I can already feel myself being drawn into this and I have to resist the urge to dive straight in. The question I am considering right now and maybe the area I want to focus on is this:
Is the taking of another human life wrong?
This isn’t the same question as “When is it right to take another human life?”. I’m not interested in killing in war, captial punishment, self defence etc. although I’m sure that any answers would necessarily allude to these acts of taking life. For the purpose of this question, “taking another human life” can be read as pre-meditated murder.
And if the answer is “Yes, the pre-meditated murder of another human being is wrong”, then I ask “Why?”
UPDATE: I forgot to say thanks for Jazz for pointing out Dawn’s post. And no, Jazz, I’m not bating you (although I suspected you’d be the first to say something! ;-D ) and no I don’t have all the responses to your questions but I would like to have this debate at some stage. Maybe a “forum” is needed…?
I feel like I’m being bated. OK - reel me in.
Tough question.
Do you believe anyone has the right to take anything from you? Can I come steal your car? No?
Then why not?
Can anything belong to another human being? If so - surely - it is their life?
Is it a legal wrong or a moral wrong that we are discussing? If moral - do we need to go to the root of morality?
Depends on whether you believe a person has any
rights in this world? And if so - surely the most basic right is the right to life
And so - who has the right to take it away?
Of course - if you believe that ther eis no God or outside influence on this world, higher force, whatever. Then I guess what is wrong is only what we decide to make wrong. We can’t live in groups if everyone is allowed to go round killing people willy-nilly.
Do you want someone to kill you ? then why kill someone else? can we argue from the point of our own consciousness?
I’ll be back
When it’s not so late and I”m not too tired to think straight.
A few ideas to bounce around for now, though I suspect you have every one of these common arguments covered. I’m interested in what you have to say.
Comment by Jazz — December 11, 2003 @ 1:13 am
Jazz I am in agreement with you about the fact that it is wrong to take a life away but i am afraid I am also in agreement that if that person is in so much pain and they can not go on any more and ask for help to end their life then it must be done. But if I was asked to help someone end a life I don’t think I could do it. Am I wrong?
Comment by S — December 11, 2003 @ 10:30 am
S - we need another debate to cover those issues - Dragon has stipulated pre-meditated murder.
P.S. I’m going to set up a forum and let’s play.
Or has Miss Meron would say
Let’s have a heated debate
Comment by Jazz — December 11, 2003 @ 12:39 pm
This is fascinating although I feel a tad guilty as this is not the exact question of my assignment. I orignally said that it had me thinking about people and then if they are born good etc. What I had been pondering is that as a counsellor we are supposed to offer all clients Unconditional Positive Regard i.e that all people are good and we do not judge them. That is where I found myself asking ” are all people good?” Can we accept people or do we naturally judge and continue to re-evaluate that judgement? Is a counsellor being genuine if s/he suspends judgement whilst working with a client?As for taking a life, if done so uninvited than absoutely it is wrong, but I do think that if someone honestly felt they had no reason to live and it was their wish to die, I would not prevent them. Is that wrong?
Comment by Dawn — December 11, 2003 @ 1:05 pm
Ok - Forum is set up for those who want to play.
I was actually in process of setting one up since I joined my son in his A Level Philosophy studies - so putting something together was amatter of a few tweaks. The polish can be added later. Should work well enough for our purposes.
I’ll do the advertising at my site later.
Dragon -I took the liberty of posting this blog. Smack me and I’ll take it down if I did wrong.
URL
http://www.ghettogeek.co.uk/philosophy/forum/forum.php
Comment by Jazz — December 11, 2003 @ 1:17 pm
Excellent - cheers Jazz. I would make a suggestion about a disclaimer at the top when you’ve got it all up and running though, if I can be so bold!
Also, no probs with the copying the post but I might like to refine the question to give and put forward some initial arguments if that’s okay.
S. and Dawn - disregarding the circumstances of killing (ie. not assisted euthanasia) and considering only “uninvited” (good way of putting it D!) taking of life, you’ve both said it is unreservedly wrong. But why? What’s your reasoning behind it? (I’m not judging, I hasten to add - just asking.)
Comment by Tom — December 11, 2003 @ 1:53 pm
You may be so bold,
Forum is ready to post. Please check your mail dragon.
Comment by Jazz — December 11, 2003 @ 2:26 pm
Re the univited taking of life, I did say somewhere that I am a simple soul and it seems to me that my life is mine and I see no good reason why anyone should be permitted to take it from me. What right do I have to take yours from you? To me it is theft, taking what is not rightfully yours. See I said I am a simple soul! And whether it is the law of the land or simply a question of survival, I feel no-one has the right to take from me. I may give, but they cannot just take, and that goes for my life.
Comment by Dawn — December 11, 2003 @ 3:18 pm
I think Dawn has a very strong argument.
Comment by Jazz — December 12, 2003 @ 12:58 am
I am having all sorts of problems posting to the forum. I think that there is a tie back to your question in the ancient concept of blood money. Differing cultures and religions came up with the concept that a human life has a worth and that the immediate family of those killed should be compensated for their “commercial” loss, in the event of either manslaughter or murder. This is perpetuated in America’s highly litigious environment where highly punitive damages are awarded for malpractice or accidental death. It could be argued therefore that taking a life is no different to taking anything else that does not rightly belong to you, which is an echo of Dawn’s point. This could further be developed to suggest that in free market societies murder is wrong but in Marxist societies, where (simplistically) all property is theft, murder should be allowed as the concept of personal possession does not exist.
Comment by Huw — December 12, 2003 @ 8:18 am
Interesting point Huw
Can you say what type of problems you are getting posting to the forum. I see you have a macpage - I presume you have a Mac. Maybe this is the source of the problem and I need to look at that?
I’d like to solve it and make it useable for all. Have you any clues? Is it freezing? JS issues?
In the meantime Sorry
Comment by Jazz — December 12, 2003 @ 9:49 am
No worries - it could just be me. Will try again when home
Comment by Huw — December 12, 2003 @ 9:57 am
Huw - you almost bring us back the moral relativism that has been brought up in the forum - especially by mentioning the Marxists.
Dawn - murder = theft of life is an interesting concept. But it does assumet that theft is wrong so (and I know you can see this coming!) why is theft wrong?
Also, if it is your “right” to be able to give away your possessions, then does it follow that it is your “right” to give away your life, to let yourself be murdered? Is the taking of a willing human life a good thing?
(I am aware that we’re having the same discussion in two different places - how confusing is that going to get?)
Comment by Tom — December 12, 2003 @ 10:52 am